The Lesbian and Feminist debate
Resulting most likely from a mixture of my experience and travels around the world, I have been thinking more and more about these issues.
Having really never explored these issues in any sense beyond my own sexuality, this has become an eye opening experience, bringing to life how interwoven and complex society really is.
It seems almost impossible to isolate one aspect (one subject) before another becomes inextricably linked to it.
It would seem prudent to begin with attempting to define " Lesbian" and "Feminist", no easy task it appears.
Lesbian
Let us start with Lesbian:
A lesbian according to the "free dictionary online -
Les·bi·an
adjective. of or pertaining to Lesbos. ( usually lowercase ) of, pertaining to, or characteristic of female homosexuality.3.( usually lowercase ) erotic; sensual.noun an inhabitant of Lesbos. ( usually lowercase ) a female homosexual.
Origin:
alluding to the poet Sappho of Lesbos, whose verse deals largely with her emotional relationships with other women wiki Lesbian is a term most widely used in the English language to describe sexual and romantic desire between females. The word may be used as a noun, to refer to women who identify themselves or who are characterized by others as having the primary attribute of female Homosexuality, or as an adjective, to describe characteristics of an object or activity related to female same-sex desire. I think this is an interesting definition as it distinguishes between sexual activity and romance ( or love). Bi-curious women or bi- friendly woman can be lesbian in their action but not in their heart and I believe that distinction is an important one to remember.
Other definitions of or about Lesbians :
The Bible - Abomination against nature and god.
Romans 1:26 - "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature"Romans 1 :31 - "Homosexuals (those without natural affection) and their supporters (those that have pleasure in them) are "worthy of death."
The Quran - Abomination, but difficult to pin this down in relation to Lesbians as it talks about same sex intercourse, not something women can do.
27: 54-55: Will ye commit abomination knowingly? Must ye needs lust after men instead of women ? Nay, but ye are folk who act senselessly.
Lots of interesting interpretations though;
The Muslim should not doubt, even for an instant, that what Allaah has prescribed is wise. He should know that there is great wisdom in what Allaah has commanded and what He has forbidden; it is the straight path and is the only way in which man can be safe and at peace, protecting his honour, his mind and his health, in accordance with the natural disposition (fitrah) with which Allaah has created man. "Some heretics have tried to attack Islam and its rulings; they have denounced divorce and plural marriage and permitted alcohol. Those who look at the state of their societies will see the state of misery which those societies have reached.When they rejected divorce, murder took its place. When they rejected plural marriage, men started to take mistresses instead. When they allowed alcohol, all kinds of shameful and immoral actions became widespread.
"They (gays and lesbians) both go against the natural disposition (fitrah) which Allaah has created in mankind – and also in animals – whereby the male is inclined towards the female, and vice versa. Whoever goes against that goes against the natural disposition of mankind, the fitrah. "
So we have the dictionary definition and the religious position, what about the body politic?
Obama - fence sitter
http://gaylife.about...barackobama.htm
The other dude, almost forgot his name - Romney
When asked by Chris Matthews of MSNBC about what he thinks the difference between marriage and civil unions is, Romney said,
"Well, I would rather have neither, to tell you the truth. I'd rather that domestic partner benefits, such as hospital - hospital visitation rights for same-sex couples. I don't want civil unions or gay marriage." He continued, "I'm going to want to see a marriage limited to a man and a woman. I don't want to see civil union either. Of course, if we find ourselves in a setting where the only choice is between civil union and marriage, I will prefer civil union. But I would prefer neither."
The Internet sex/sexualality forums, body politic:
I don't know where to start really, threads, questions galore on Lesbians ranging from the bizarre - do you / can you and will you suck my cock, let me fuck you ? Do you fantasize about me and my cock ? Would you join my straight/ curious wife for a FMF with me to please her (of course).
To the inane ignorant and xenophobic:
"She is a known man hater" ( posted by a woman)
"All I can say is on behalf of "mankind", am I ever glad its a dyke!"
Both are sadly very typical of many straight women responses about Lesbians and straight mens insecurity.
It seems there is very little knowledge among many men and women (and their swinger wives /gf's) as to what is a Lesbian or bisexual woman .
Lesbian is in my opinion a woman who primarily desires and has sex with other women, but what distinguishes them from bisexual women is they will only form romantic and loving relationships with other women.
Definition: Historian and activist Cheris Kramarae once famously remarked that;
The Internet sex/sexualality forums, body politic:
I don't know where to start really, threads, questions galore on Lesbians ranging from the bizarre - do you / can you and will you suck my cock, let me fuck you ? Do you fantasize about me and my cock ? Would you join my straight/ curious wife for a FMF with me to please her (of course).
To the inane ignorant and xenophobic:
"She is a known man hater" ( posted by a woman)
"All I can say is on behalf of "mankind", am I ever glad its a dyke!"
Both are sadly very typical of many straight women responses about Lesbians and straight mens insecurity.
It seems there is very little knowledge among many men and women (and their swinger wives /gf's) as to what is a Lesbian or bisexual woman .
Lesbian is in my opinion a woman who primarily desires and has sex with other women, but what distinguishes them from bisexual women is they will only form romantic and loving relationships with other women.
Feminism
Definition: Historian and activist Cheris Kramarae once famously remarked that;
"Feminism is the radical notion that women are human beings"
This is about the most accurate and concise definition of what feminism is, that I could find. Feminism as a movement, is about women living on equal terms with men and not to be pushed down by law or by culture, into a subservient role.
Although the word "feminism" had been used during the mid 19th century as a synonym for " femininity" it was first used to describe a political movement in 1894, when a British newspaper warned of the "feminists" who had begun to achieve power in the French legislature.
Feminism is generally broken down into several historical "waves" :
Definition - A woman that desires equality in her life, in work, family and relationship.
"In the most basic sense, feminism is exactly what the dictionary says it is: the movement for social, political, and economic equality of men and women. Public opinion polls confirm that when people are given this definition, 67 percent say they agree with feminism.
This is about the most accurate and concise definition of what feminism is, that I could find. Feminism as a movement, is about women living on equal terms with men and not to be pushed down by law or by culture, into a subservient role.
Although the word "feminism" had been used during the mid 19th century as a synonym for " femininity" it was first used to describe a political movement in 1894, when a British newspaper warned of the "feminists" who had begun to achieve power in the French legislature.
Feminism is generally broken down into several historical "waves" :
- First-wave feminism, which lasted from the 18th century until World War II and was centered on securing basic civil rights, such as the right to vote and to own property ;
- Second-wave feminism, which lasted from the end of World War II until the defeat of the Equal Rights Amendment (ERA) in the 1980s and centered on achieving equality in the workplace, protecting reproductive choice, and attempting to pass the ERA ; and
- Third-wave feminism, which incorporates racial justice, LGBT rights, and class oppression into the feminist world view and seeks real, practical equality for all women.
Definition - A woman that desires equality in her life, in work, family and relationship.
"In the most basic sense, feminism is exactly what the dictionary says it is: the movement for social, political, and economic equality of men and women. Public opinion polls confirm that when people are given this definition, 67 percent say they agree with feminism.
We prefer to add to that seemingly uncontroversial statement the following: feminism means that women have the right to enough information to make informed choices about their lives. And because "women" is an all encompassing term that includes middle-class white women, rich black lesbians, and working-class straight Asian women, an organic intertwining with movements for racial and economic equality, as well as gay rights, is inherent to the feminist mandate.
Some sort of allegiance between women and men is also an important component of equality. After all, equality is a balance between the male and female with the intention of liberating the individual."
Of course the goals of feminism are carried out by every day women themselves. Maybe you aren't sure you need feminism, or you're not sure it needs you. You're sexy, a wallflower, you shop at Calvin Klein, you are a stay-at-home mom, a big Hollywood producer, a beautiful bride all in white, an ex-wife raising three kids, or you shave, pluck,and wax. In reality, feminism wants you to be whoever you are-but with a political consciousness. And, vice versa: You want to be a feminist because you want to be exactly who you are.
Most women come to feminism through personal experience, which is one of the reasons the core identity of feminism has to be so elastic. The term represents an incredible diversity of individual lives.
Of course the goals of feminism are carried out by every day women themselves. Maybe you aren't sure you need feminism, or you're not sure it needs you. You're sexy, a wallflower, you shop at Calvin Klein, you are a stay-at-home mom, a big Hollywood producer, a beautiful bride all in white, an ex-wife raising three kids, or you shave, pluck,and wax. In reality, feminism wants you to be whoever you are-but with a political consciousness. And, vice versa: You want to be a feminist because you want to be exactly who you are.
Most women come to feminism through personal experience, which is one of the reasons the core identity of feminism has to be so elastic. The term represents an incredible diversity of individual lives.
Often a woman who otherwise won't align herself with feminism will seek it out when she is confronted with an abusive relationship, or if her boss is paying her less than her male counterparts, or, on a positive note, if she needs credit to start her own beauty salon.
Historically, who else besides feminists have been there to help women, whether they be Calvin Klein-devotees or Vegan Earth Mothers? Many women tap into or create feminist resources not knowing they are on a feminist path.
Clearly, the only people actively paving the paths to women's equality are feminists. Eventually, most women seeking to expand or change their lives find feminism.
The relationship between Feminist movements and Lesbians has been an interesting one and still is today. In the early 1970's Lesbians were not welcomed into the "equally fight" as many feminist groups and "leaders" believed Lesbian = "man hater". Unfortunately a belief still held by many people today, one even recently used to describe me in a thread on a forum. In other words many "feminists" were and continue to be homophobic.
On the other side of the coin is the growing acceptance of "traditional masculine and feminine identity and roles" within many lesbian couples. This to me is a worrying trend as it is mimicking the very inequalities within a marriage that many feminists have fought against. The "Toms & Femmes" in Thailand or the Butch & Femme in the west.
As stated earlier feminism cannot achieve it goals of equality without men's co-operation and willingness for there to be equality between the genders. There are many men that are feminists and actively promote and practice gender equality in their personal and public lives and these men should be commended on their stance and bravery.
There are however many obstacles facing men in accepting "feminist ideology" and incorporating equality into their lives.
The first of these obstacles is religion.
Religion is defined as :
In particular the moral code, organisation of life and worldview have a direct influence on both Homosexuality and gender equality.
As we have already seen most religions view homosexuality as a abomination against both "god(s)" and nature, but what do they say on equality. Not much, but they do have a lot to say on inequality.
" Wives submit yourselves unto your own husbands as unto the lord" - Ephesians 5:22
" That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, To be discreet, caste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their husbands, that the word of god be not blasphemed" - Titus 2:4,5
" Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man" - Corinthians 11:9
Whether we believe in god or not it is impossible to ignore the influences religions have on the beliefs, culture and behavior of people. Laws and hierarchies, cultural practices, expectations, values and norms, all are shaped by religion.
What do Christianity, Hinduism and the Muslim religion all share in common, prejudice against homosexuality and the promotion of inequality between the genders.
This inequality impacts everyone, man or woman, straight or homosexual and to fight this inequality means changing not only the very fabric of society, but the cloth it's cut from.
A monumental task, to be sure and here are the problems men face :
Historically, who else besides feminists have been there to help women, whether they be Calvin Klein-devotees or Vegan Earth Mothers? Many women tap into or create feminist resources not knowing they are on a feminist path.
Clearly, the only people actively paving the paths to women's equality are feminists. Eventually, most women seeking to expand or change their lives find feminism.
The relationship between Feminist movements and Lesbians has been an interesting one and still is today. In the early 1970's Lesbians were not welcomed into the "equally fight" as many feminist groups and "leaders" believed Lesbian = "man hater". Unfortunately a belief still held by many people today, one even recently used to describe me in a thread on a forum. In other words many "feminists" were and continue to be homophobic.
On the other side of the coin is the growing acceptance of "traditional masculine and feminine identity and roles" within many lesbian couples. This to me is a worrying trend as it is mimicking the very inequalities within a marriage that many feminists have fought against. The "Toms & Femmes" in Thailand or the Butch & Femme in the west.
Men and feminism
As stated earlier feminism cannot achieve it goals of equality without men's co-operation and willingness for there to be equality between the genders. There are many men that are feminists and actively promote and practice gender equality in their personal and public lives and these men should be commended on their stance and bravery.
There are however many obstacles facing men in accepting "feminist ideology" and incorporating equality into their lives.
The first of these obstacles is religion.
Religion is defined as :
- Belief in supernatural beings (gods).
- A distinction between sacred and profane objects.
- Ritual acts focused on sacred objects.
- A moral code believed to be sanctioned by the gods.
- Characteristically religious feelings (awe, sense of mystery, sense of guilt, adoration), which tend to be aroused in the presence of sacred objects and during the practice of ritual, and which are connected in idea with the gods.
- Prayer and other forms of communication with gods.
- A world view, or a general picture of the world as a whole and the place of the individual therein. This picture contains some specification of an over-all purpose or point of the world and an indication of how the individual fits into it.
- A more or less total organization of one’s life based on the world view.
In particular the moral code, organisation of life and worldview have a direct influence on both Homosexuality and gender equality.
As we have already seen most religions view homosexuality as a abomination against both "god(s)" and nature, but what do they say on equality. Not much, but they do have a lot to say on inequality.
" Wives submit yourselves unto your own husbands as unto the lord" - Ephesians 5:22
" That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, To be discreet, caste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their husbands, that the word of god be not blasphemed" - Titus 2:4,5
" Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man" - Corinthians 11:9
Whether we believe in god or not it is impossible to ignore the influences religions have on the beliefs, culture and behavior of people. Laws and hierarchies, cultural practices, expectations, values and norms, all are shaped by religion.
What do Christianity, Hinduism and the Muslim religion all share in common, prejudice against homosexuality and the promotion of inequality between the genders.
This inequality impacts everyone, man or woman, straight or homosexual and to fight this inequality means changing not only the very fabric of society, but the cloth it's cut from.
A monumental task, to be sure and here are the problems men face :
- I'm the man the head of the household, the leader and should be obeyed and respected as such
- A wife's duty is to please her husband and look after his "needs" his house and his children.
- Men are superior to woman, stronger both physically and mentally.
- Women should not challenge men or the "natural" order of things.
Many men believe these things 100% others to a lesser extent. For many to give up their position of superiority and control over woman is intangible and completely undesirable.
We observe post upon post from men who find it unreasonable that their "woman" won't do this sexual act or that act, won't open her legs whenever he wants sex. It's never their fault, they are after all the perfect husband and father.
It's the fault of feminism or her hormones, either on their own or in some way conspiring together to make his life miserable.
Never for once does it seem to cross many of their minds, that there may be some very good reasons she is not happy and is expressing this in the only way she thinks they will listen and maybe effect change.
Feminism has been a thorn in the side of men forever, they try to crush it as in India and Pakistan, ignore it as in China and Japan or marginalize, ostracize and attack it in the west.
The worst is probably Canada/ UK/ USA etc where you get men posting even on this site that she;
" she only got the job because "she's a woman" and the boss either got a blow job or fuck from her or he had to give her the job due to "affirmative action"."
Feminism is their "Anti- Christ" and as abused men they feel the need to abuse others, their teachings tell them to abuse women, control them, blame the women for everything that is wrong in their own mind and Spirit or marriage.
Their posts always will call you a " man hater " that has "serious problems" or that their wife is now a changed person and a boring woman, but I have not changed at all ( that may be the problem).
What they can't accept is that a woman does not need a man to make them complete, or that women are equal to them.
They prefer to post dribble like this :
" But am I against women in the workplace doing jobs they really cannot do as well as men but getting equal pay...BET YOUR ASS I AM...best stay in the kitchen in my opinion."posted in "sexforums.com" June 2012.
As the fanatical American pastor David j Stewart says:
" Feminism is Evil"
http://www.jesus-is-...ism_is_evil.htm
This is all common knowledge and history, what is of more interest is how us women can move forward and how to bring men along as equals.
http://www.jesus-is-...ism_is_evil.htm
This is all common knowledge and history, what is of more interest is how us women can move forward and how to bring men along as equals.
As I feel they know intellectually that by hanging on despairingly to these outdated and oppressive systems of patriarchy and religion in their quest for the subordinate wife and sex slave, they are way behind us morally and they are embarrassed about it.
The zealots however are scared that they are not #1 anymore, but can we save them, I don't know, it's pretty hard to tell or educate someone who will cut his own wife's nose off, or stone his lesbian sister to death.
The zealots however are scared that they are not #1 anymore, but can we save them, I don't know, it's pretty hard to tell or educate someone who will cut his own wife's nose off, or stone his lesbian sister to death.
As for most straight women they are probably the most sad and down trodden of all (world wide) , truly sad and sadly truly homophobic I have no real answer, but I worry about them.
Education is the key I guess, but while women continue to teach their daughters religious and patriarchal values, educate them to be homophobic, they the suburban career woman or stay at home soccer mum, who does not challenge the "status quo ", are the feminists greatest opponent and the misogynistic world political and religious leaders greatest ally.
They are truly frightening to me.
Lesbianism and Feminism scares the hell out of many men and their straight women wives (slaves), why because it tells them they ( or their way of life) are not the most important thing in a woman's life, it undermines their control over women and their belief in male supremacy.
Therefore they have to call us unnatural, they have no argument of substance.
Lesbianism and Feminism scares the hell out of many men and their straight women wives (slaves), why because it tells them they ( or their way of life) are not the most important thing in a woman's life, it undermines their control over women and their belief in male supremacy.
Therefore they have to call us unnatural, they have no argument of substance.
Can we as a world, even as a city resolve these thing, I sometimes wonder .
I listened to a radio conversation just yesterday with Mary woo - simms
Eloquent, thoughtful, balanced and good
http://rabble.ca/pod...ustice-activism
then I read these ;
http://www.jesus-is-...ism_is_evil.htm
http://www.jesus-is-...sm/monsters.htm
and this:
http://www.sexforums...ttach_id=158446
I guess i know which one makes sense to me, what do you think ?
